UK flag without Scotland?

Discussions on flags used in Europe.
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PaulJames
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby PaulJames » 27 Nov 2013 22:17

Leonardo Piccioni wrote:You posted this before, in 22 July 2012. :lol:

I think that the white fimbriation is St. George's cross is not very needed, because it's very clear what comes from where, and St. George's cross is still prominent.

What St.George's Cross?? The definition of St.George's Cross is a Red Cross on a White background. If you change either the red or the white, then it becomes a completely different heraldic symbol, in no way representative of England or St.George.

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Leonardo Piccioni
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby Leonardo Piccioni » 27 Nov 2013 22:49

The same way that St.Andrew's cross can be represented by a blue saltire on white, or even more generic saltire color combinations, a St. George's cross can be represented by a white cross on red (see Newfoundland coat of arms) or a red cross on other background (common on Georgia [country] vexillology).
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PaulJames
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby PaulJames » 28 Nov 2013 09:20

Leonardo Piccioni wrote:The same way that St.Andrew's cross can be represented by a blue saltire on white, or even more generic saltire color combinations, a St. George's cross can be represented by a white cross on red (see Newfoundland coat of arms) or a red cross on other background (common on Georgia [country] vexillology).

The cross on the Newfoundland arms has nothing to do with St.George: it is the cross of St.John the Baptist (as also seen in the arms of the Knights of St.John / Malta), representing the supposed day of the island's "discovery" by John Cabot. It illustrates the point that when you change colours in heraldic devices (especially plain crosses), you create a completely different device.

While people elsewhere might change colours for derivatives, as in St.Andrew's Cross in Nova Scotia and Russia, the derivative cannot replace the original. I doubt any Scotsman would recognize a blue saltire on white as representing Scotland, and nor will an Englishman (myself included) recognize a red cross on yellow as symbolizing England. Whatever happens elsewhere, the red-white combination is fundamental to the English symbolism.

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Leonardo Piccioni
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby Leonardo Piccioni » 28 Nov 2013 12:02

From both explanations I found, St. George and St. John, the second is definitely the more pointless, in my opinion.

By the way, there isn't red on yellow.
reino-unido_sem-escocia_decomposicao.png

It's the problem of selectively decomposing the Union Jack. Is UK suddenly claiming France or Greece on its flag? No.
reino-unido_e-sao-miguel-magicamente-aparece.png
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Meiriongwril
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby Meiriongwril » 28 Nov 2013 16:44

Anyway - if there is both white and yellow fimbriation, the width should be the same or, indeed, the yellow wider as representing the cross not the background. On the version above, the white definitely appears wider than the yellow.

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Sammy
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby Sammy » 28 Nov 2013 17:27

although I am sure that if (and that's a big if) the flag did change in the event of a yes vote in Scotland, it would be as similar to the current flag as possible I thought that a few non Union Jack based proposals might add some variety. The first flag is really based on the flag of Montreal, a cross of St George, with the flowers of (the remainder) of the United Kingdom, rose for England, Dafidiol for Wales and Flax for Northern Ireland, I thought it might make it more interesting to use the York, and Lancaster roses separate rather than the Tudor rose:
UK (without Scotland 3.png

I used on St George's Cross as it has historical use in Ireland and Wales aswell as England (although perhaps some more than others ;) )
Or alternatively based on PeteCollier's design:
UK (without Scotland 4.png

Or as Paul James suggested using the de Burgh red cross for Northern Ireland, St George for England and St David for Wales, Playing about a little I thought of this:
UK (without Scotland 5.png
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Sammy
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby Sammy » 28 Nov 2013 17:41

Perhaps another possibility we should consider are coats of arms, while there is to be no immediate change to the postion of the monarch in Scotland so the Queen's Coat of Arms might not change, what about the variation used by HM Government. If Scotland leaves the current doesn't really seem appropriate:
743px-Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_(HM_Government)_svg.png

As well as having the Royal Arms of Scotland in the second quarter, the unicorn supporter is also taken from the Scottish coat of arms.
of course replacing Scotland with Wales could easily be done on the second quarter but what about the Unicorn, I think perhaps the Welsh dragon would look pretty cool?
I also think that the national flags of the three countries could be used rather than the Royal Arms (reserving their uses for Royalty only). Just a thought?
UK coat of arms without Scotland 1.gif

The Northern Ireland quarter is of course a proposal, alternatively one might use the national flowers?
Also perhaps a little off track, I based a flag on this:
UK (without Scotland 1.png

Perhaps a state flag, Naval Jack or Personal Flag of the Prime Minister?
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PaulJames
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby PaulJames » 28 Nov 2013 21:50

Leonardo Piccioni wrote:From both explanations I found, St. George and St. John, the second is definitely the more pointless, in my opinion.

Pointless or not, it is accurate, as far as I can see. Is there any evidence that anyone intended it to represent St.George?

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PaulJames
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby PaulJames » 28 Nov 2013 22:28

Sammy wrote:Perhaps another possibility we should consider are coats of arms, while there is to be no immediate change to the postion of the monarch in Scotland so the Queen's Coat of Arms might not change, what about the variation used by HM Government.

That would imply that the Queen is a separate entity from her government, which is a major change in constitutional theory. The government uses HM's arms as Queen of the UK because it is her government exercising her authority. It has no independent existence, and so no reason to have its own coat of arms. The fact that some elements of the royal arms are usually left out when used by government departments is neither here nor there : the variations are interchangeable.

If Scotland becomes independent, its legal position in relation to the UK would be the same as that of Canada and the other realms, so it would make no sense to retain the Scotland in her UK arms unless she was also going to include the arms of all those other realms (which would be horrendous!). She would have separate Scottish arms for use north of the border. For the remainder of the UK, the obvious answer would be to replace the Scottish lion with the Welsh lions, and the unicorn supporter with the Welsh dragon.

ukns.png

(apologies for the low quality)
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Leonardo Piccioni
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby Leonardo Piccioni » 29 Nov 2013 04:33

I think the last coat of arms is a good way, although I fear that the leak is still the choice instead of daffodil, unfortunately.

I agree that Sammy's flag proposal with the crown on inescutcheon could be nice for something like prime minister's personal standard. Maybe variant designs, like one with a portcullis, could also be produced?
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