UK flag without Scotland?

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Marcus Wendel
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UK flag without Scotland?

Postby Marcus Wendel » 25 Mar 2012 15:25

Has there been any "semi-offical" or other interesting suggestions on the appearance of a flag for the without Scotland?

/Marcus

26May1989
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby 26May1989 » 26 Mar 2012 11:55

Not that I've seen. Anyway, the so-called St Patrick's saltire wasn't removed from the flag when that part of the UK which now forms the Republic of Ireland left the Union leaving the 'province' of Northern Ireland (a reduced status to that of the old Kingdom of Ireland - the Union Flag representing the union of the three kingdoms). If, and it is very unlikely, Scotland leaves the Union then I would expect that the Union Flag would remain unaltered as it has come to represent the United Kingdom as one kingdom regardless of its size.

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VoronX
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby VoronX » 21 Apr 2012 00:14

I've seen lots of personal proposals out there on the web and on NAVA and on FOTW, both with and without incorporating Wales, either dragon-style or St David's cross, but it is irritating in that many people remove the blue background but still leave the white quartering in the saltire. I think a version that would be nice would be Sable, the Cross saltire of St Patrick, Gules, fimbriated argent, surmounted by the Crosses of St. George and St David, quarterly, counterchanged of the second and Or, the former fimbriated of the third.
In essense, black background, make the St Patricks Saltire whole, and do the pinwheel thing with the red and gold crosses in the center. Fimbriate white where necessary.
I've seen a lot of proposals, but none quite like this - most have the David's cross inside the George's cross and vice versa.
uk-with-wales-wo-scotland.JPG


Not too TERRIBLY different in feel from the current one, IMO.
(pardon the rush job)
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Sammy
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby Sammy » 28 Apr 2012 16:36

I think that if Scotland leaves we should move away from the union jack theme. As it first came out to represent Scotland and England. What is the United Kingdom without Scotland? as much as it pains me to say it being an Ulsterman it is mostly England with a few bits added on. Wales is technically part of England and Northern Ireland is almost to small to mention. So the cross of St George takes pride of place with a welsh dragon for Wales and Red hand of Ulster for Northern Ireland.
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Sammy
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby Sammy » 29 Apr 2012 21:59

I have put some more thought in this and I have come up with these designs based on the English 1652 command flag. I was thinking more nautical here, in that perhaps my St George Cross design above be the state flag and these maritimer ensigns. These are split into the usual red, blue and white meaning the same as they do today. The Crown is central and I think works fairly well with the shield representing the 3 countries united under a common crown. However there are two septate versions the first has the shields of the patron saints of the UK (Scotland obviously excluded as these are in the unlikely event of the Scots leaving). But the other (and my personal favourite as I used it in most examples) is the Royal Arms of England (Northern) Ireland and Wales. The White Naval Ensign keeps the cross of St George central as the current Naval one does as does other commonwealth countries like India. The big disadvantage is that these Ensigns are more difficult to deface for an overseas territory or crown dependency. Although the centre design of the crown and shield could easily be moved to the canton in such a case but it doesn't quite look right I think.
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26May1989
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby 26May1989 » 30 Apr 2012 10:13

I quite like Sammy's alternative designs much more than the well thought out but unatractive Union Flag with St David's cross replacing St Andrew's saltire. However, none is a patch on the present Union Flag, Scotland in the union or not! Following on from the Union Flag question (and associated ensigns) would be the Royal Standard. Would the arms of Wales replace the arms of Scotland for the UK and a new Royal Standard for Scotland?

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Armiger
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby Armiger » 30 Apr 2012 12:22

Following on from the Union Flag question (and associated ensigns) would be the Royal Standard. Would the arms of Wales replace the arms of Scotland for the UK and a new Royal Standard for Scotland?


Unless Scotland became a republic and Wales a kingdom, there would be no reason to change the Royal Standard which has had Scotland at Q2 ever since shortly after James VI of Scotland also became James I of England. The Scottish quarter was not added with the Act of Union in 1707, thus there would be no cause to change if the Union were dissolved - as long as the English monarch and the Scottish monarch were one and the same. Of course that is the Royal Standard of 4 quarters: England/Scotland/Ireland/England. The Scottish Royal Standard (no quarterings, just the rampant lion in the double tressure) would also remain unchanged - assuming always that Scotland did not become a republic.
Chris Green

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Leonardo Piccioni
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby Leonardo Piccioni » 30 Apr 2012 16:15

Visit my blogs about flags: Create/Recreate - Flags, etc. | Flag Review |Flags of U.S. States.
Visit the Vexillology Wiki, an initiative to propagate American and Canadian flag proposals.

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Sammy
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby Sammy » 30 Apr 2012 20:08

yeah a I have seen the union jack with the St Andrews removed. I don't think that if scotland does leave that we would use that version. The flag would either remain unaltered or a new idea would be drawn up.

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TheNewTeddy
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Re: UK flag without Scotland?

Postby TheNewTeddy » 06 May 2012 10:09

Hello. I've registered specifically to respond to this thread.

I've seen a lot of different proposals, but not many of them adopt the KISS principle. Keep things simple; which in this case means "Don't change it too much".

While This proposal
Image
Does reflect only a moderate change, it does not include Wales, nor does it make the smallest possible change.

I propose to add the St. David cross to the flag. But... only to replace those parts of the flag which are modified by the removal of the St. Andrew cross. AND, even then, only to the parts that come from the Blue area of said flag (as white exists on the other flags that make up the union flag)

The result would be thus:
Image
A flag that, from some distance, looks nearly identical, and even close up, only has one minor change in one colour.
~Nick J "Teddy" Boragina


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