Family/Personal flags

Discussions on non-geographical flags and flags used in fictional works.
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PaulJames
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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby PaulJames » 25 Aug 2012 14:35

Leonardo Piccioni wrote:I thought about using both a cougar (puma), symbol animal of my city (São Paulo), and a jaguar, Brazilian national animal, but in my crest.

The lion is a very common charge, I'm sure, but it's there for a kind of canting arms, because "Leonardo" means something like "brave lion" or "brave like a lion". So, just a really good reason would make me drop the lion, but I haven't yet something as strong as it


Oh yes ... I should have thought about the canting aspect. I guess an alternative to using the animal lion would be to use the constellation of Leo. Just some ideas:

leonardo ideas.gif
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PaulJames
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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby PaulJames » 25 Aug 2012 16:10

Sammy, the GWR displayed the arms of London and Bristol in their company logo, but never in a formal coat of arms. They never claimed, nor would have been allowed to claim, either shield as their own : they merely used them to illustrate where the company operated.

I came up with a couple of more ideas for you :) If the gold lion on black was ever a McKittrick coat of arms, under Scottish heraldic practice, you would still have been required to difference them unless you were the heir of the original holder. Perhaps the most common form of difference was the border, so ....

mckittrick new4.gif

or
mckittrick new3.gif

The possibilities are endless :)
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Leonardo Piccioni
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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby Leonardo Piccioni » 25 Aug 2012 16:31

Wow, Paul, I loved your two last proposals to Sammy, principally the first one.

About your proposals with Leo constellation: some of them, principally the penultimate, looks good, but I can't associate them with myself, unfortunately. I was working with alternatives, including some with lion passant. Look at them, so let me know what you prefer or feel free to propose other alternatives.
propostas-meu-brasao-de-armas.png
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PaulJames
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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby PaulJames » 25 Aug 2012 21:25

Ah well, the constellations were worth a try :)

Out of your options, I think I prefer the penultimate one. I debated between this and the previous one, but wasn't so keen on the gold ermined blue field.

One thing occured to me (which I should probably think about for my own arms too). Since the helm and crest are depicting 3D objects (whereas the shield depicts a painting on a flat surface), it might be better to turn the helm so that it is facing the same way as the crest, as it would have been in reality. In English heraldry, this didn't used to be permissable - a gentleman's helm had to face dexter - but in recent years the heralds have relaxed the rules, and quite often show closed helms affronté.

Here is what I mean:

leonardo6.gif
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Leonardo Piccioni
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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby Leonardo Piccioni » 26 Aug 2012 01:56

Your art touch make my coat of arms a lot cooler. The lion and the motto are excellent. I aesthetically prefer the helm depicted from front, but, for the good of heraldic tradition, I hope it's just a fad. I'm not a traditionalist (the amaranth tincture reveals it), but a coat of arms must, at least, look like a coat of arms. It's a good example of how I think helms should be carved:
Image

However, I'll consider adopt it with the helm affronté.
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PaulJames
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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby PaulJames » 26 Aug 2012 14:18

The helm affronté is very traditional :) ! The rules that certain types of helm must be displayed in certain attitudes originated during the "heraldic decadence" which followed the medieval period, and were far from universal : I'm not sure if they ever applied outside of the British tradition (they certainly didn't in Germany, for example).

Back in the early days of heraldry, when shields, helms and crests were used for real, if someone had a crest which he wanted to displayed affronté or in three-quarter profile, then the entire helm was turned accordingly. This is the "pure" heraldic tradition to which British heralds are now returning.

Here's some medieval examples:

helms affronte.gif
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Sammy
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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby Sammy » 27 Aug 2012 13:45

I would like to thank you all for the time you took in suggesting and and designing coats of arms. I like all of them and would use them all if I could but I have narrowed it down to these two. I like the blue boarder which I think emphasises the black and lion and the crest, but I also like the white thistles and flax flowers the black. As for Leonardo's coat of arms I think the helm from the front works very well with your owl crest.
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PaulJames
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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby PaulJames » 27 Aug 2012 15:53

I'm glad you like them, Sammy. Of the two, I think the shield with the thistles and flaxes is most likely to be unique and original. I'm not entirely convinced by the use of a lion rampant in the arms but a lion salient in the crest, so if you prefer the flax and thistle crest anyway, things can be swapped around! -

mckittrick new5.gif
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Leonardo Piccioni
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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby Leonardo Piccioni » 17 Sep 2012 00:41

I think I will use the frontal helm.

Can I do a request? Please, can you turn it within a Iberian/Flemish shield format. They're mostly used here in Brazil, and family or personal shields use them in 99% of cases. They have a rounded bottom. I could do it but I might ruin it completely. Thank you.

Image
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PaulJames
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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby PaulJames » 18 Sep 2012 20:47

I'll do that, Leonardo.

Since we're not dealing with British heraldry, I could be more flexible on the type of helm as well, if you wanted a barred helm, for example.


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