Family/Personal flags

Discussions on non-geographical flags and flags used in fictional works.
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Sammy
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Family/Personal flags

Postby Sammy » 25 May 2012 19:11

My Family Flag is a banner of the coat of arms. The coat of arms consists of a gold lion rampart on a black shield, with a gold cornet with a gold lions head coming out of it. The motto is Tito non Temere. (Quick not Rash) I decided to keep it simple and based on the coat of arms basically because it keeps a link with past and present, family name supposidly is rather ancient also the coat of arms I am told are very old. It also can be accepted by everyone in the family (you know what they are like lol). Tartan wise the McKittrick s have no tartan of their own (although I am thinking of designing my own) but we are entitled to wear certain other ones. We are/were a Sept of the Clan Douglas and have the right to ware the tartan associated with that clan. Other Tartans are district/location ones. I didn't include universal ones as they're for everyone and anyone. I'm happy to discuss these topics with anyone if they are interested. I am thinking on having the flag made. I also have designs featuring the flag in the form of a pennant for bad weather or night use.
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Sammy
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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby Sammy » 25 May 2012 19:43

On top of the family flag I have also designed my own personal flag (Currently my wee profile pic) This features the family flag by the Pole. The Fly end has at the top the crimson flag of Derry defaced with the cornet design of the coat of arms. The bottom Blue (because I like the colour) defaced with the wheel of a steam locomotive representing my great passion for all things railroad. between these are two flax flowers and a thistle representing Northern Ireland and Scotland. Scotland is where the family name originates and N.Ireland is where we have lived for the past 3 or 4 centuries or so. I also have an alternative less formal version partly based on the personal flag of Elizabeth II that features the lion, the flowers and my initials in a circle(which can represent various things) This is a smaller design than the banner and can be used for vehicles (why not) or used in bad weather or night.
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TheMapShop
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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby TheMapShop » 15 Aug 2012 21:02

I love this idea. A great family flag/emblem can really be a very powerful image. I also have always like the lions crests that have appeared in medieval crests. Great job

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Sammy
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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby Sammy » 18 Aug 2012 22:17

personally I would have thought a single gold lion on a black background would have been very common for traditional family coats of arms, but looking around at others this is not the case. I am fortunate that unlike some others the shield of my arms is rather simple, so therefore the flag in banner form is relatively simple and cheap(ish) to order. Of course my personal standard is a different story :lol:

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PaulJames
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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby PaulJames » 18 Aug 2012 23:01

Are you sure this coat of arms was used by a McKittrick (and, more to the point, a McKittrick to whom you are the heir)? Looking in Burke's General Armory and Papworth's Ordinary of Arms (both late 19th century editions), I found several names of people using a gold lion rampant on black, but no McKittrick, and no other arms for anyone of that name. The fact that there were several using the same coat was unfortunate in itself, because undifferenced arms should be unique to one man at a time. Can I ask where the picture comes from?

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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby Sammy » 19 Aug 2012 21:39

Yes this is in my parents house and I believe it comes from the Hall of Names in Jersey in the channel islands. My Grandparents also have these arms (although on a wooden plaque rather than a picture) hanging in their hall. What I did not take a picture of is that this picture (and the plaque) came as part of a set. The coat of arms and a brief but detailed history of the name(I didn't put it up as the text is rather small and would't be clear on the picture). As for the lion rampart on black, perhaps I didn't make myself too clear. The lion rampart is a very common image particularly in Scotland. I meant normally you don't come across a single lion, usually its accompanied with something often in the quarter or the lion is carrying something. I don't debate that other surnames might also have a gold lion rampant on black.There is of course more to the arms than the lion rampant in the shield. The cornet (which I think is mural cornet) and the lion's head protruding from it are also very important aspects of the arms. It was a very common name around the Galloway area of Scotland although it originates in the Northern Isles. If you look up the Septs(branches, allied or dependant families) of the Clan Douglas you will find it, Their were also records of a tenant farmer of the name McKittrick in 1607 as part of the new settlements in Ulster. As well as America and Canada.

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PaulJames
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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby PaulJames » 20 Aug 2012 17:44

Yes, I thought it came from somewhere like that! Unfortunately, places like the House of Names are not authoritative sources for heraldry : they are known to heraldrists as “bucket shops” – companies which spuriously “sell” coats of arms related to names, with little or no regard for their legitimacy or accuracy.

The first problem with them is … there is no such thing as a coat of arms for a name!

Coats of Arms are a form of property, which initially belong to the first person to register or be granted the arms, and then to his heirs and descendants based on their blood relationship. In order to have any claim or association with a pre-existing coat of arms, you have to be able prove your descent from the original holder. Simply having the same name doesn’t count, nor does coming from the same area and only maybe being distantly related.

This is especially true in Scotland, where heraldry is fully regulated, heraldic law is actively enforced, and no two living people are supposed to bear the same arms – not even brothers. And in heraldry, “same arms” means the same shield – different crests (such as your mural crown and lion’s head) do not make for different arms.

Sadly, this means that most of us in Britain and Ireland (me included) have no claim to any lawful coat of arms. Unless we can find proof of an appropriate ancestral link, our only official way to get arms is to apply for a grant of new arms from the appropriate authority. Unfortunately, this is pricey - £4,725 if you live in England, Wales or Northern Ireland, over £2,000 in Scotland.

If you don't have that sort of money to throw around and you have sufficient heraldic expertise (or someone who can help you), you can devize your own arms – the arms you would like to be granted to you. They won't be strictly legal, but nobody outside Scotland is going to take action against you, provided you're not copying – "usurping" – someone else's arms. This is what I did several years ago – the banner of the arms is in my avatar.

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Sammy
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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby Sammy » 20 Aug 2012 23:11

there is no such thing as a coat of arms for a name
yes I am aware of that but looking back at the origins I don't think any living person called McKittrick would be able to trace themselves as a direct blood relative of whoever created or was granted these arms, granted the age of the name might not necessarily be the age of the coat of arms. In fact they are mentioned at the end as the "the oldest arms associated with that clan(no official clan McKittrick) or branch.." which could mean they have nothing to do with the family directly. Part of the reason why I designed a separate standard for my own uses is because of what you have mentioned. Either though way I don't think there is anyone alive who can legally claim them :lol: :idea: However you have given me an interesting idea and a new project to ocupy my spare time with :D

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PaulJames
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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby PaulJames » 21 Aug 2012 07:58

Actually, I think if this coat of arms was genuine, the owner would be able to trace his ancestry back far enough. He wouldn't have to do the research from scratch : each generation would simply add itself to an existing pedigree. It's unlikely that someone bore the arms without telling his own son about it, so the knowledge would pass down the generations. In Scotland, it would have been recorded and preserved on the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland, which is the official record. If a coat of arms is not on the register, then it's not a legal Scottish coat of arms.

But I have doubts that the gold lion rampant on black was ever a McKittrick coat of arms. I wonder whether someone at the House of Names couldn't find arms for McKittrick, so he picked a simple shield at random, and a random crest, and put them together. I would be interested to see whether there is any real evidence for these arms.

As for your project, I had a a bit of spare time, so I came up with an idea for your consideration! It incorporates the lion (but salient instead of rampant), thistle, flax, wheel, motto and the colour blue (because you like blue). I put the motto above the arms, which is customary in Scotland. I can't guarantee that it is unique, but it might well be:

mckittrick idea1.gif


mckittrick banner idea.gif
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Sammy
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Re: Family/Personal flags

Postby Sammy » 21 Aug 2012 14:36

To say thats awsome would be an understatement! But I'm going to say it anyway, that's awsome! :D I am surprised at how much I like the sailent lion on the shield :) I'm not sure if I like it better than a rampant but I am still very very pleased with it. I especially like the sailent lion withe the wheel. Well done! :D


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